Jews And Palestine Discussed

Jimmie feels that the Jews who took over Palestine from the inmates are worthy people who don't deserve to be hated. John Thames feels quite the reverse. Telling us about the history may only be assertion. Quoting sources means supplying evidence which can be accepted or refuted - if justified. I am with Mr Thames on this. He comes across as  a good historian. Jimmie on the other hand asks what Israel has done to be hated and seems determined to ignore the evidence. NB This discussion started when the Jews were running Gaza Massacre 2008



What Has Israel Done to Earn Such Hate from the West?

I simply don’t understand the wellspring of blind allegiance to the Palestinans that I’ve been seeing around the world and in the MSM.

Hamas, who the Palestinians elected to the majority even though it has long been known as a mob of killers, has rained over a thousand rockets on Israel every year since 2005 while Israel has mostly taken it. Can you imagine the world being silent while any nation lobbed rockets indiscriminately down on any other nation in such quantity for so long? Make no mistake, these rockets have no certain target. Hamas is not trying to hit an Israeli military installation. They are lighting off rockets certain to land somewhere in Israel and Hamas could care less whether they blow up a tank or a playground.

This is acceptable behavior to the Palestinians and the world.

A top Hamas leader, before he was blown up by a targeted Israeli missile, says that “Israel is impossible” and Jews “are a cursed people” and spend his life trying to kill every Jew he can see. Palestinians cheer him and the world accepts what he says and does with silence.

Hamas executes dozens of Palestinians and the only world criticism falls on Israel who, after years of accepting death after death, moves to crush Hamas’ ability to kill any more Israelis. Meanwhile, a spokesman for Fatah, whose members Hamas is slaughtering, criticizes Hamas for wasting resources it could be using to fight Israel.

Palestinians accept this and the world twists itself into a pretzel trying to justify this barbarism.

This makes no sense. It is illogical. There is no doubt - none - that if Hamas forswore its goal to destroy Israel and stopped the attacks Israel would not send so much as one bullet Gaza-ward. Hamas is the group that is so utterly intolerant that it can not even imagine a desirable world where Israel exists. If Hamas laid down its arms, there would be immediate peace.

So why is there such sympathy? I don’t understand it. Is there that much anti-Semitism in the world that Israel must be criticized, even for fighting back against years of unending attacks? And, please, spare me the propaganda about how cruelly Israel has treated the Palestinians. They enjoy rights in Israel that they enjoy in no other Arab nation. No country in the region has given as much humanitarian aid to the Palestinians as Israel. No country has offered them as much land nor as much money to help them become a stable and peaceable nation. It is not Israel’s fault that the Palestinians live in squalor and misery.

I don’t get the open, undisguised hatred for Israel from people who are smart enough to know better.


13 Comment(s)

  1. it’s not undisguised hatred. you have to be able to acknowledge that the palestinians are a people who have been screwed over, both by arabs and israelis. it hasn’t been all that long that many of these people can probably remember their homelands being forcibly taken away from them. now they live in a situation where they are under constant surveillance, it’s nearly impossible to find a job, they are under constant scrutiny, and treated like second class citizens at border checks. and on top of that, there are still zionists trying to take over what little they have. and these are the palestinians in the west bank and gaza. what about all the refugees in lebanon? they’re an unwanted, forgotten people.

    so let’s not turn all of this about israel. it’s not about israel. it’s about humans suffering - these poor people have suffered for years. they have no quality of life.

    and there’s no easy solution. hamas is a terrorist organization, no doubt. but they are no more the face of palestinians than (i hope) the zionist settlers are the face of israelis. there’s hatred on both sides. so to say that if hamas laid down arms, and there would be immediate peace i think is oversimplifying things.

    one last thing: why must everything turn into that ugly word “anti-semitism”? can we agree to disagree about israeli politics without turning into a “anti-semitic” barb?

    kathryn | Jan 7, 2009 | Reply

  2. We can, but I won’t so long as what’s being said is anti-Semitic. When the bulk - or even all - of the criticism comes against Israel, that’s anti-Semitic because it is false and irrational.

    Yes, Palstinians have been mistreated. Yet they can still have their very own nation and rule themselves and Israel will not only support them in that but will actively help them. All they have to do is recognize that Israel has as much right to exist as they do. That’s all.

    However, the biggest reason they have no quality of life is not because of Israel. It’s because they’ve been used by their Arab neighbors and thoroughly evil people like Yasser Arafat. They have given their loyalty to people who have used them cruelly, which is largely their fault.

    Jimmie | Jan 7, 2009 | Reply

  3. Jimmy:

    You are blowing smoke.

    Kathryn is absolutely correct. Israel is a state which was founded by terror-and which has been maintained by terror ever since. If you will research the early history of Zionism, you will discover that it was the intent of the Zionists from the very earliest days to expel the Palestinians by force and drive them off the land. In particular, the infamous Mr. Vladimir Jabotinsky was always writing essays in the early 1920’s demanding “an iron wall of bayonets” [ See Breathtaking Zionist Hypocrisy ] to deal with the Arabs. He acknowledged that the Arabs would never accept their dispossession by the incoming Zionists unless they were confronted with insuperable force. So just who are the terrorists-the Jews or the Arabs?

    Hamas fires rockets into Israel? Of course they do. People generally meet force with force. Since it was the Arabs who were victimized by Zionist force in 1948, the Arabs naturally respond in kind. They want their country back from the Jews who stole it from them. Who can blame them? Please do not try, Jimmie, to pretend that it was the Arabs who attacked the Jews in 1948. Anyone who has studied the subject knows that the Zionists had been planning for an eventual war with the Arabs from the first days of the Zionist colonies in the 1880’s. War was inevitable from the first day the Jews set up shop in someone else’s land. And do not try, Joan Peters “From Time Immemorial” style, to pretend that Palestine was an empty land and that the Arabs only moved in to take advantage of the enormous prosperity that the Jews were supposedly creating. Professor Yehoshua Porath in Israel has already taken care of that one. And do not quote UN partition plans in 1947 or the Balfour Declaration   of 1917 either, Jimmie. Neither the British Empire nor the United Nations had any right whatever to give the Jews legal title to Palestinian land. And, oh yes, Jimmie. Let us not try the shopworn Zionist apologetic that there never was any country called Palestine. Palestine as a country may not have existed under the Ottoman Empire but the Palestinians as a people attatched to their land did exist.

    If you want to talk about terror, Jimmie, get J. Bowyer Bell’s book “Terror Out of Zion”. Read how the Jewish underground in Palestine was assassinating British soldiers and officials right and left. Read about how those future Prime Ministers of the state of Israel, Menachem Begin [ who got the Nobel PEACE Prize with murder warrants outstanding - Ed. ] and “Rabbi” Shamir”, were on the “Most Wanted” posters of the Palestine Police Force. Read about the assassination of Lord Walter Moyne in Cairo in 1944 and about the dynamiting of the soutwest wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem killing ninety people by Menachem Begin. Read Mr. Ben Hecht, the Hollywood scriptwriter in the New York Herald Tribune of May 1947 describing how every time the Jewish underground in Palestine blew up a British soldier or official, that the Jews of America “made a little holiday in their hearts”. Read these facts, Jimmie, and you may discover that Zionist terror was alive and well in Palestine long before anyone ever heard of Hamas.

    Perhaps Kathryn, who seems to understand the subject in a way you don’t, should search your website for a debate topic called “Did Israel Steal Palestine From The Arabs?” After she reads my incisive historical analyses, we can join forces and take you apart, Jimmie. You will really enjoy it.

    John Thames | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  4. Yep, that ol’ Terrorist UN. Gotcha.

    Jimmie | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  5. Jimmie:

    Did you say something? What was it, please.

    John Thames | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  6. It appears that both John and Jimmie agree that the Palestinian people’s desire for peace is less than their desire for land currently occupied by Israel.

    EricH | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  7. John, regardless of how Israel got there (and I hotly dispute your account of the situation as grossly incomplete), the fact is that Israel is there and it is a sovereign nation. Palestinians must accept that fact if they ever hope to be more than a primitive culture grubbing around in the dust, cursing enemies real and imagined.

    Jimmie | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  8. Jimmie:

    “History judges by success alone.”-Adolf Hitler.

    In other words, because the Jews succeeded in stealing Palestine from its rightful owners, the Arabs must now accept the fait accompli as a pre-condition to peace. Malarkey. You are quite right that my account is incomplete. There is much more to be said on the subject. But it would be nice if you would enlighten us with your superior skills as a historian and give us your “complete” version. I do not expect to see it.

    Let me add some more completeness to the story. It is obvious that you are pro-capitalist, pro-free market. Me too. But the Labor Zionists who moved into Palestine in the 1880’s were anything but. They were Jewish communists from Russia. You may have heard of David Gruen/David Ben-Gurion from Poland. He was a Jewish Marxist and admirer of Vladimir Lenin. Other Jewish Marxists from Russia were Dov Ber Borochov , Nachman Syrkin and Chaim Zhitlowsky. They all believed in Jewish nationalism plus Jewish communism. They wanted their ideal Marxist state in Palestine, not in Russia. Look up their biographies on Wikipedia and see if I am not right. The British soldiers and officials in Palestine after the war all believed that the Jews invading Palestine were ideological blood brothers with the Jews then communizing Russia. They were right. Tremendous numbers of kibbutzes in Israel today have pictures of Lenin and Trotsky dotting the walls. When Israel was created in 1948 it was Joseph Stalin and his Jewish commissars who provided modern weapons from Czechoslovakia to help the Zionists win the war. Most of the immigrants to Israel from the Iron Curtain countries were red to the core. All this was known to high American State Department officials like Loy Henderson and Walter Murray of the African and Near Eastern Affairs Division. You might want to take a look at Professor Arnold Krammer's book “The Forgotten Friendship" [ The Forgotten Friendship: Israel and the Soviet Bloc ] for confirmation.

    I find it fascinating that a man who calls himself pro-capitalist should defend a state whose history and antecedents were, until the takeover by Likud in 1977, purely red. I also do not understand why the Arabs of Palestine, victims of a theft, should have to recognize the theft of their country before being granted meaningless “rights”. To the contrary, I believe that the Israelis should have to admit their guilt-and make recompense to the aggrieved party, the Arabs.

    If you lack the necessary background to debate me on this subject, Jimmie, and I believe you do, you can always invite Miss Carnivorous or some other Zionist apologist back to debate me. I have many hundreds of reference works on this subject, including many by Jewish scholars. I am thoroughly conversant with the history, 1880-1948. I can drag out one documented fact and quotation after another at a moments notice.

    This is not a subject to be understood by focusing on day -to-day events, Jimmie. The true story lies in the years 1880-1948. Everything that has come since is merely a replay of those events. That is why the Zionists and their lackeys never want to talk the history, they only want to talk about today. I insist on the history. To know the history is to know the innocence of the Palestinians and the guilt of the Jews. I await your more objective account with bemused anticipation.


    You can always transfer my essays from the debate topic “Did Israel Steal Palestine From The Arabs?” to this thread. They might add some very interesting history to the debate on this one.

    John Thames | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  9. Wait…you’re quoting Adolf Hitler now? Seek help.

    I have no interest in debating you. It is a fools’ errand and, regardless of your own belief on the subject, I am no fool. History has spoken and you are firmly on the incorrect side.

    Jimmie | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  10. Jimmie:

    Asserion is not proof; neither yours nor mine.

    I quoted Adolf Hitler merely to demonstrate that your position is consistent with his-if yoy can get away with stealing somebody else’s country, it is OK. That appears to be your position on the theft of Arab Palestine. If you think that analogizing the Israelis to the Nazis is purely a leftist political slant, there were quite a few British conservatives post WW2 who thought the same. One was Sir Edward Spears Edward Spears.

    I am quite sure that you will not be debating me on this subject-nor any of your guest columnists. I am much too dangerous an opponent because I know too much.

    John Thames | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  11. Yes. That’s it, John. I am awed by your ginormous intelligence.

    And your Hitler explanation is disingenuous. You could have just as easily dredged up “History is written by the winners” but you didn’t. You picked Hitler which, considering that you’re railing against Jews, is telling.

    The truth is that I don’t want to debate you because you bore me.

    Jimmie | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  12. Jimmie:

    You do not know anything about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. But you figured out a long time ago that circumsised fellatio pays. Keep slurping.

    John Thames | Jan 8, 2009 | Reply

  13. Congrats, John. You’ve forced your way to the delete list. Apparently you really can’t take “no” for an answer.

    Jimmie | Jan 9, 2009 | Reply